I've already railed on his position on student loans and credit cards. Well, he's coming to Houston on Saturday, and I have one last complaint.
Tithing.
It drives me crazy when he tells people eyeball-deep in debt, people taking benevolence from the church, people offloading their debts in bankruptcy, people on welfare, that they should still tithe.
My personal views are from my parents' tithing when I was a child. Today I would describe my parents as non-religious, and I think the tithing had something to do with it. At the awful church my parents attended, it was well-known who didn't tithe. Through gossip, through some kind of list, it was one step from a fully functioning phone tree. My mother was always deeply shamed when she made it in the gossip, correct or not. She is a very proud person.
When I see people like, say, JW tithing when they give so much already and they probably can't afford it, I'm puzzled. I assume they have the same level of gossip my parents' church did, maybe even more pressure.
When I worked Meals on Wheels as a teenager, almost all my deliveries were to old women who had tithed their entire lives. In retirement, they couldn't even afford food. Now, THAT is humiliating.
I'm all for giving, but in today's world where you should plan to live past 60, taking care of your own house means saving for retirement. It means saving for the future. If you can't take care of yourself (including your future self), I think you have to consider long and hard whether tithing is correct. It isn't a stock one-size-fits-all Ramsey answer that everyone must tithe.
Tuesday, January 20, 2009
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23 comments:
Couldn't have said it better.
I donate to charity (mostly Canadian Cancer Society), but if I couldn't do it any longer I wouldn't.
And I don't put it as a set item in my budget, but usually when I see a good cause, I put in at least $50-$200 instead of $5 here and $10 there.
Fabulously Broke in the City
"Just a girl trying to find a balance between being a Shopaholic and a Saver."
I don't know DR's guidelines for tithing, but I do believe in giving back. I just don't agree with it being a percentage of your income. I just think we all need to remember that no matter how bad we have it by our cultural standards, it's sooo much better than others have it in other parts of the world. I think it helps ground you. But I also think that can be done with $2 a month and not 2% of your income (great if you can do 2%, but that's not realistic for a lot of people). And if you can't swing $2, give your time. Oh, I sense a whole post on my CheapCharity blog brewing...
I also don't like the word "tithe". It's got too many church connotations.
Of all the articles in the pf blogosphere I love reading the ones about tithing. The comments usually get so heated too. Like you, I have a few problems with DR and tithing is definitely one of them. I recently attended a church that did sermon after sermon on tithing and not just tithing on your net income, but on your gross income. To me, this was completely ridiculous that I had to listen to a sermon like this (even once on Mother's day!) when the pastor was making 125K plus benefits. Needless to say we never gave the church a penny.
As far as tithing while being in debt, I think its ridiculous. JW has the funniest blog because all of his problems would be solved if he just stopped tithing for a year.... after that he could then give more if he wanted.
I believe in the importance of always giving back, no matter your income. However, tithing isn't necessarily about giving back, it's about a biblical command to give to the church.
Personally, I'd rather people give money as fits their situation and conscience, and to always give their time. Tutoring, cleaning up a park, Meals on Wheels, and organizing community events are all important and drastically understaffed.
Dave Ramsey believes that giving is a universal law which even works for atheists. He teaches that Christians and Jews must give at least 10% while trying to get out fo debt, but he does not put that burden on unbelievers.
See http://www.tithing-russkelly.com/id74.html
I believe we should donate to charity, but I don't see tithing as charity. One, you are deriving a direct benefit from the money you give, a social club, a place to network, entertainment, a building to congregate in....Two that money is used to recruit new members. Three any help given to the poor or homeless isn't truly free, the church will try to convert or "save" these vulnerable people. And yes Dog, we all need to save ourselves first and foremost. If you can't pay your bills then you are in need of charity, not in a position to be charitable.
Because the people in debt like JW, don't realize that their money should go to pay their creditors first! Why? Because they "borrowed" money to live. But don't believe it's important to pay it back.
But I still don't get how you justify borrowing and then "tithing" before paying off people you owe money to.
But I'm a non-believer.
Completely agree.
I also associate tithing with church. I grew up going to church and I feel that an understanding congregation wouldn't hold it against someone for not tithing or maybe tithing much less until they are out of trouble. I've seen my church congregation come together to help needy members, I can't imagine them bringing someone down.
That being said, religious or not, I think that a person can still give back without necessarily dropping large amounts of cash. There are many alternatives to just donating money. One could opt to reduce donations, volunteer for a non profit, teach a Sunday school class, or manage a fundraiser. It doesn’t necessarily have to be religious. So many people feel that our value is derived from money. But the money we make is compensation for our time, so donating time can be just as valuable if not more valuable when used properly.
Exactly why are you going to spend 5 hours of your Saturday listening to a guy that you don't seem to like that much?
I'd much rather give my time than cold, hard, cash. Most of the time the money is mismanaged anyways. I'm Roman Catholic but stopped believing in the church when my pastor (or priest?) showed up with a huge diamond Rolex. I was 10 when I saw this, and it's still fresh in my memory.
I agree completely. I just don't understand how it is "okay" to continue to tithe when you desperately need to money.
I was raised Roman Catholic, and although they wanted you to give 10% or more, NO ONE that I knew gave that much. My parents barely had any money when I was growing up and I remember that they always gave $10. Now my mom gives $20 a week. But $10-$20 is completely normal.
I actually used to work in the Rectory of the church and I remember the day that the new leather couches for the priests' rooms arrived. It would seem kind of difficult to give much after that.
But then again, I am a non-believer now.
No one should make a rule about how much people should give and apply the rule to everyone. It also doesn't seem very "Christian" to judge fellow church members or believers for what they give.
"Tithing" is associated with religious organizations and as such does not have a good place in financial advice for all. Encouragement for giving is a good thing, but time is just as good to give as money.
My testimony is similar regarding my parents tithing. My parents tithed my whole life, and yet, they had mounds and mounds of debt. It doesn't make sense to me. With 8 kids, and sending them to a christian school with my father in a blue collar job and the only one working, what do you expect? Why would God accept a gift when we're in bondage to debt?
- jared
There are many ways to give of oneself. Money is perhaps one of the least important.
Tithing is about your personal relationship with God, which is why non-believers are not expected to tithe. Regardless of whether someone is in debt, tithing is about an expression of your faith in God. It is suppose to mean, God is my source of supply not my job(s) or business(es). Still, most Christians do not tithe, so there are probably very few (percentage-wise) people who are truly struggling because of the 10% they gave to their church.
Tithing is pure cold hard OT law which only applied to food producers inside Israel. Although money was common in Genesis and essential for sanctuary worship, money was never included in 16 texts which describe the contents of the tithe.
There is not a single Bible text which says that the poor were required to tithe in the OT. In fact the poor received much of the 2nd festival tithe and all of the 3rd tithe.
Trades such as carpenters, fishermen and tentmakers had nothing tithe-able and firstfruits were not the same as tithes. The Bible has been terribly distorted and tithe-teachers will not defend their positions.
Russell Earl Kelly, PHD
www.tithing-russkelly.com for over 150 aricles
While appreciate the reasoning behind the comments made regarding tithing, I am a faithful tither and a giver. I started with nothing and believe firmly that God and the talents he has bestowed upon me have enabled me to grow in my finances as I have grown spiritually and matured in life. While the "world" is struggling for some sort of economic rescue, I am secure in my faith and know that God is my source. For this reason, out of respect, obedience, and love I give 10% of my gross income and give offerings both purposed and spontaneously as I feel led. I cannot and am not attempting to buy God's love. He loves me whether I tithe or not; whether I give or not. As I said before, I started with nothing and now make about 40G a year. We always have food to eat, clothes to wear, and we pay our rent and utilities with no help from any outside source. There were times when we didn't have, and the church helped meet needs we had. The government helped meet needs we had. But neither the church or government are a caretakers. God is!!! Jesus saved my life and I owe him everything.
Before I give money to a Church, I ask them a question.
Do you care for the poor? Is your priority to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, give something to drink to the thirsty, house the stranger, tend the sick, visit the prisoner?
Or do you spend more on new buildings for the faithful and fellow believers than you do to care for those who can't care for themselves?
When Jesus was here on Earth, where did He go? He hung out with tax collectors, "sinners" and prostitutes! (for it is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick).
And what did He do? "The blind receive sight, the lame walk, those who have leprosy are cured, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, and the good news is preached to the poor."
But too often I see Churches asking for money, and more money, and even more money so they can build more and more buildings for themselves to be thankful to meet in.
Isolating themselves from the mission field and the very people we're called to serve. And they say that God approves of this, and will refuse to bless us unless we also give to those who already have too much.
DR doesn't say for poor people to give. He believe his point is to give when you get on your feet.
No wonder you wish to remain anonymous. You do not even know the difference betwen tithes and sacrificial freewill offerings.
Just found your blog, and I have the same problems with Dave Ramsey.
As for tithing, I have a hard time believing that it is God's nature to create such a system--especially one based on money.
I do believe in the spiritual principle that if you give, you'll receive, but only humans would be so preoccupied with money as to overlook other important things like love, energy, time, service, attention.
I don't think God came up with percentages of dollars, and I don't think God puts as much importance on churches as we do. So to me, the whole idea that God wants us to "tithe" to churches completely misunderstands what God is about, and limits God to some human conception.
But then, I think most of the Bible smacks of man's egoistic thinking, and does not truly reflect God's nature.
How do you get onto DR's blog without paying to join his club? I would like to ask him some tough questions.
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