Whee! Wedding gifts again! If you want to pretend that wedding gifts are voluntary and no one is offended by your cheap gifts, just move on. Nothing to see here.
So, like Living Almost Large said, wedding gifts are very important in my culture, and you're supposed to report them back to your parents. I was just planning on giving her the list, like you're supposed to. But after all these comments, I realized that Mom would never understand. If Miss Manners thinks gifts are "voluntary" and the entire Internet thinks $20 gift cards are OK, Mom can't handle the truth. So, I couldn't give her the list.
For some background, my sister's wedding back at the turn of the millenium was big drama because my sister converted to a very strict religion and had a scaled back reception only. That forced my mom to cherry-pick from the family, which led to hard feelings, even today. None of my brothers have married yet. Thus, it was important to invite everyone to my wedding. It also means my parents have dished out cash for a lot of nieces and nephews since then.
I sat down with mom. She asked for the list. I told her I had not kept a list. She huffed and puffed that I had to have a list for the thank-yous! I said I had done them as I went along. Mom paused, she might have known that was lie. She got right to business, and asked about people's gifts. Mom knew the cost of everything on the registry and pulled a calculator out, she was ready.
* Aunts & Uncles
Mom asked about all of my aunts and uncles and family friends. Precision is important for these numbers. These people are expected to give at least what my parents had given their kids at their weddings plus cover any kids who couldn't cover themselves. Mom nodded, and wrote them down. One was low, revenge for my sister's wedding, mom said. One was not easily valued, which annoyed Mom. One was very low and one was missing, layoffs, mom apologized.
* Cousins
Mom asked about my more established cousins and a few of our friends that she knew. (Cousins in school/unemployed/young are supposed to be covered by their parents.) Friends and cousins are expected to have given enough to cover their plate. This I finessed a bit. Sometimes I offered excuses "They're still putting Jim-Bob through law school" or "That flight from L.A. was expensive." Or, juicier gossip, which pleased mom. "She lost her job because her boss slept with the CFO." Sometimes, I just said a "decanter" or "frame" or a "box of kitchen stuff." These gifts are impossible for mom to value, and cannot offend her. A lot of friends didn't give anything at all, so I just made something up. Mom seemed pleased that everyone was so generous and, thus, that she had done a good job.
* In-Laws...
Mom asked about the in-laws. This is the tricky part. I said that Señor Dog had handled that. I decided to spare Mom the $20 gift card or the $15 checks. She wouldn't have been able to handle it. I know, no one in the whole Internet but me is offended by cheap gifts. The entire Internet thinks $20 gift cards are great for weddings, but I'm telling you mom would have been crushed, no deeply insulted. She would have considered cheap relatives a reflection on Señor Dog's entire family, and even on Señor Dog himself. So, I spared her that.
So, no list. Mom was happy, I was happy, everyone was happy.
Saturday, March 28, 2009
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21 comments:
I understand the etiquette of covering your plate, or being frustrated that you made such a lovely day for everyone and they repaid you with unthoughtfulness.
But this fascination with it must stop. I know that you've just gotten done with one of the last days that will be all about you, but its over now and you look spoiled.
I was even with you for the first few posts. It is disappointing that people know you are going through so much trouble and have them give gift cards. Its tacky. But to go on and on about it is a little tacky too.
Hello! Did you even read the post?! I just said that I didn't even mention the gift cards to mom.
I think it's nice of you to spare you and your mom the frustration of going over the real list. I don't know, i'd seriously feel pressured if my parents were like that, keeping tabs of what was given in the past and to see if the people had made up for it this time around. Holding a grudge for that long can't be healthy. It's also good to see that you are defending people because of lay-offs or the expensive flight, etc.
At first when I read your other posts, I thought it was your family and friends that came with the $20 gift cards...not Senor dog's. Correct me if i'm wrong. They probably viewed it as 'his' and not 'your' wedding, and figured he'd be happy with a $20 gift certificate.
I know in my culture and social circle, the groom's family certainly would not allow themselves to be upstaged by the bride's family, and it's actually expected that certain people buy certain (expensive) things from the registry. I don't agree with it, but that's just the way it is. In fact, it's an embarrassment if the groom's family spends less on the wedding; they're supposed to pay for the whole event and then some. Of course, the bride's parents, not wanting to look cheap, will usually help out with providing a huge downpayment (for a house, or whatever).
Different cultures/social circles, different ways of doing.
It might help people understand your and your mom's thinking a bit more if you actually said what your cultural background is and whether your mom is an immigrant or was born in the U.S. Cultural traditions and expectations tend to fade after a generation or two in the U.S.
I think it's worthwhile for all of us to check out this site, which identifies World Gift Giving Customs.
I, fortunately (or unfortunately, depending upon how you see it), come from a culture that places GREAT importance on gift giving and reciprocity. It's so important that there's an unwritten protocol and ritual on how to present gifts and how to accept them! Inappropriate gifts could be taken as a personal affront.
I know we're in the US and when in Rome, yada yada yada. But I think it's also important that people try to understand that this may be less of a petty issue and more of a cultural issue for Dog.
If the "cheap" gifts came from people of the same culture as Dog, the gift itself could be construed as a personal insult.
However, if the "cheap" gifts came from people of other culture, Dog should try to understand their perspective as well.
As Rodney King once said, "Can't we all just get along?"
In my culture, it would be considered the height of tacky to go through a list of gifts to make sure that everyone has "given enough." So I'd make sure that, if your brothers happen to marry girls from deep southern traditional families, their families don't hear about this quaint custom. My family would probably forgive her for about 20 years after the wedding, and we're pretty generous as far as that sort of stuff goes.
Ah, see I didn't realize part of this was cultural. I tend to forget how cultural wedding gifts and such can be.
My mom's family has been in America, from England, since the early 1700s. And they tend to live in small towns with not a lot of jobs. So getting by is pretty much a lifestyle. Same with Tim's family, by and large. So presents to us, while deeply appreciated, aren't a reflection of anything other than goodwill.
It sounds like you're pretty low-key about the whole thing, compared to your mom. It was nice of you to avoid any bad feelings overall.
Yeah, it's disappointing when people give small gifts -- especially if you're from a family or culture that sees it as a reflection of feelings toward you -- but I'm glad that you see it's not worth creating a whole family war over. Tim lost almost a decade (maybe a little more, not sure) of time with his paternal grandparents because of bad feelings.
I am astounded--I was totally unaware that people actually tallied up the value of wedding gifts!! Obviously, my cultural heritage doesn't place nearly so much emphasis on keeping a running tab. Do you include birthday, holiday, and anniversary gifts to form one big total per person? Can you make up a skimpy birthday present with a more expensive anniversary gift? Could everyone just exchange $100 bills round robin style and everyone would be even or would somebody up the ante? Just curious.
OH Lay off. Culturally there is a "expectation" However horrible of gift giving amounts.
If you went overseas to a wedding and gave a $20 even after yes you traveled overseas, it would be HORRIFIC in some cultures. I know this from personal experience.
My Dad gave for all of us to his nephew wedding though only him and my mom went. It was from all of his "kids" too.
I got when I got married from his sister and daughter and daughter in law very generous gifts though they also traveled overseas. DH and I had an overseas wedding celebration as well and got a lot of cash.
There is a level of cultural differences.
LAL, your culture and Dog's culture have never posted. So how would most readers here know anything about it. Those of us whose ancestry is European don't necessarily come from families with those expectations or traditions. Just a simple sentence that in the Chinese/Japanese/whatever culture, this is the expectation would clear things up and not make it seem like you or your families are materialistic ingrates (which is some readers have apparently interpreted Dog's posts).
Again, once a family has been in the U.S. for several generations, some cultural traditions die off. However, no matter what the culture, I still think that moms tally up how much they've spent on the weddings and showers of their nieces and nephews over the years and if that genorosity is not reciprocated when their own children get married then there might naturally be hard feelings.
In this economy, however, I would hope no one is going into debt to buy gifts. And again, most of us find the idea of "covering the cost of one's plate" absolutely ridiculous, no ifs, ands, or buts, no matter what the culture is!
Maybe it's an East Coast thing, maybe it's my culture, but I completely agree with you. If you are working, not a student, etc., you should cover the cost of your plate if you attend the wedding. If you're unemployed, in school/putting a spouse through school, have major medical bills, etc., then you should give what you are able to give.
I just can't imagine a universe where someone would give a $20 gift card when attending a wedding. If you are unemployed, etc. and can only afford $20, then use that $20 to make/give something meaningful.
Dear Barb1954,
What on earth makes you think she's Chinese or Japanese? Thanks for assuming Asian people are shallow. (And don't even try to say that you included 'whatever culture'. You didn't have to mention anything at all.)
I'm Korean and I can tell you that there isn't any fixation on producing a list of the wedding gifts in Asian culture. If there is, it's a dysfunction with that individual family. No one in my Asian family, overseass or not, cares who gave what in what amounts.
Yes, gifts are culturally important, but it's the context of the exchange that really matters. (Like the groom's friend 'bribing' the bride into marrying their friend b/c he's so ugly, a loser, etc. it's a joke for fun, but the gifts can be quite nice.)
I admit, this is a little nuts that her mom wants to do this it at all, but I think DogAteMyFinances doesn't have much of a choice and handled herself in the least inflammatory way possible with her mom.
I try not to give identifying details after what happened to JW, and when crazies were trying to out my real identity.
Maybe my mom's version of the gift tally is a little extreme, but it's not uncommon. I'm sure others are just less open about it. If nothing else, gifts to nieces and nephews and so on are supposed to even out in lots of cultures beyond mine.
In all these posts, I think I've learned that people remember their wedding gifts, which are a special kind of gift. Heck, people posted comments about cheap or thoughtless gifts 5, 10, 25 years later.
RE: Hello! Did you even read the post?! I just said that I didn't even mention the gift cards to mom.
I read the post. That was not the point. The idea that your mom would be angry that and you feel the need to shield her is ridiculous. It feels blown out of proportion.
I thought about this on the way to work yesterday. If some of my richer friends got married, I hope they would be understanding when I didn't get them a huge present. Right now, I can see myself not making rent payments if I lose my job. Every cent counts. I don't go out to eat, I don't go drinking, and I certainly couldn't get married in this climate.
At the moment, giving someone $100 (or equivalent) to "cover my plate" would make me nauseous. Most meals I eat cost three dollars or less. Should I not go to the reception? Should I pack a peanut butter and jelly sandwich so I can continue with my friends? Did you tell people how much their plate would cost you, in hopes that they would cover it? Or did they have to guess>
It might be a cultural issue, but its definitely gone from being something that you pride yourselves on to something you judge others with. Look at it from a different angle.
I guess I was also your mom's need to know what the gifts were and who they were from, despite the fact you had already written thank you notes. The purpose of which was to assign value to the gifts that you received.
I was taught never to count gifts, never to compare, and to never put monetary value. To exclaim with joy no matter what. Someone got you a gift; be grateful.
mapgirl, the reason I wrote the post the way I did is because: 1) I know LAL from other public and private boards and so know something about her background, and 2) Ms. Dog posted an image of an Asian couple in one of her many posts about wedding plans.
I think what you did was very classy. I don't know why people are still complaining.
People, lay off. You're on the internet to learn or observe what others do in THIER OWN LIFE.
So, for the naysayers, congratulations on being a "martyr" and not caring what people got you for a gift. For others, congrats on being "shallow" and caring.
I'm one of the last to get married in my group. Over the years I've given generous gifts to those whom I feel close to and love. Let's count the ways: engagement parties, showers, stagettes, 1 year anniversaries, baby showers, 1st bday party, etc, etc, etc. And damn straight, when I get married if my well-off friends and family - whom I've given LOADS of gifts to over the years - cheap out on me, I'll be royally pissed.
Lynn
All right, simmer down y'all.. lol
Man, wedding gifts are a hot topic and people are getting mad.
Dog, you must be getting some mad traffic here..
@Celia, I don't think it's a fascination with wedding gifts, it's Dog's blog, her life and her posts. Of COURSE she's going to write about one of her biggest events in her life and try to answer or let others understand where she's coming from (since most of the internet.. not me) thinks that $20 is okay for a wedding gift.
She's just blogging about her life and finances. It's why you're on her blog, no?
Anyway. In my culture, gifts are a big deal. But only on my dad's side. My mom's side is the same race/ethnicity but totally different (more catholic, and therefore, forgiving I guess).
So my cousins got a LOT of money from family, their parents, cousins, grandparents, friends, enough to cover EVERYTHING + much more.
My dad and mom however traditional they are and are TOTAL immigrants, do NOT give or care about gifts for their own family, because they are cheap as hell.
No joke. My brother got $0 from us as a family (I was too young to pay anything) and he understood (sort of), although never talked about it.
However, if my parents tried to pull that trick in our homeland, they'd be shamed and verbally flayed from top to bottom if people found out that they didn't give ANYTHING to my brother. (They kept it on the down low).
So when my parents go to weddings of anyone who is not their son or daughter, they DO pony up at least $50/person, and my mom (the last wedding she went to for my cousin), gave $500, or $250/person because she knew the mother would be counting the cash at the end to see the respect given, like Dog's mom.
My dad almost had a heart attack when she told him about the $500 gift, but she told him that they could NOT be cheap (with anyone who isn't their immediate family like us who'd lie for them), and word would 'get around'...
Anyway, my point is that I am not sure ethnicity and culture can really play SUCH a huge role other than setting the rules for each culture.
From then on, it's up to each individual person -- for Dog's mom, it's counting on making sure that each person who attended paid the proper amount of money and RESPECT in gifts to the bride and groom.
For my parents, they couldn't really care less, because they're cheap and understand others of the same mindset (plus, they don't pay anything for the wedding, everything is left up to us to deal with).
I think Revanche touched on this, and the whole gift giving thing is akin to where in my culture (traditionally, not with my parents specifically) is that they give jewellery to the bride (from the in-law side) and the larger and more ostentatious/expensive the jewellery, the more they love her as a bride. If it's small, "elegant" or non-existent, they quietly and heartily disapprove.
So in a way, Senor Dog's in-laws cheaping out on gifts to the couple can be seen as an insult because it means they don't like Senorita Dog enough to spend money on her..
Sorry for the long rambly post.
I'm a little annoyed that you keep saying that those of us who were shocked by your attitude actually think $20 gift cards are "ok". You are totally missing the point of most of the comments!
In the original post, there was no talk of cultural stuff or traditions particular to your family (which most people are totally unaware). The whole "i can't believe i got a $20 giftcard" topic could have been done in a much classier way. I still would have been surprised at the traditions your family has, but it would have added some perspective
That being said, it was kind of you to spare your mom the frustration you felt.
I just wandered over and discovered this post. Finally someone out there comes from a similiar background as me. I am of an opinion in between your mother and you. . .ok maybe way closer to your mother :D
My family, and the people I grew up around (almost all first generation Europeans) are used to very generous wedding gifts. I will confess I've been married twice, first to an American (I'm Cdn) and then to an English guy, and both times the families/friends on the groom's sides were really. . frugal compared to what I am used to.
For people we don't know well, it is expected to yes, cover at least the cost of your plate. One commenter I noticed asked how anyone would know what that is. . .well I think you can generally tell from the venue, and they tend to ballpark around $100-200. That is the minimum gift, right. Then family gives more, and immediate family gives A LOT more. Parents go all out and provide the downpayment for a house (so tens of thousands.)
We also never give actual gifts at the wedding itself. Gifts are for the wedding shower beforehand. Cash only is given at the wedding.
I actually save all the cards people give me, or my daughter, and write on the backs of them what the person gave me so I can always have a record and know what they would expect back in return!!! lol
When I wrote about all this on my friends-only journal, which is read by mostly Americans, I got pretty much the same sort of comments you're getting here.
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